How NZ Rugby is intentional about high performance, on and off the field

Justin:

There's a ritual at New Zealand rugby that happens when someone joins the organization. The lights dim. Ex All Blacks and Black Fern players walk in. And new staff members, people who will never step on the field, are presented with their jersey the same way that elite athletes receive theirs for the first time.

It's borrowed straight from the teams, and it works. Toni Grimshaw, the Chief People, Safety, and Wellbeing Officer at New Zealand Rugby, says staff commitment there is stronger than anywhere she's ever worked.

Now, keep in mind, New Zealand Rugby's a not-for-profit, so no one's getting rich by committing. And this isn't a workplace where the work is easy either. They're pretty upfront that if you're not prepared to give 120%, this isn't the place for you.

Their commitment is their strength because of rituals like this. Because of a concept called kaitiaki. You don't own the jersey. You're a guardian of it for a short time. So what impact do you want to leave?

And that mindset is simple. Team before individual, legacy over ego. It isn't just talk. And when commercial partners come with big money to build campaigns around individual star players, New Zealand rugby says no. Revenue on the table, and they turn it down because the principle matters more.

And here's what really stopped me. The All Blacks are selected season by season. Every time they come together, it's essentially a new team. Last year, the team was named in early June, and they played their first test match two weeks later. Two weeks. Two weeks to go from strangers to performing at the highest level on the world stage.

In those two weeks, you'd think they'd be on the field tackling, kicking goals, drilling plays. But that's not what those two weeks look like. They're in clubrooms, connecting, talking about their whakapapa, their heritage, why they play, and what it means to them. And then they get clear on how they want to operate as a team. And only then, courage. That's what gets them on the field winning games.

This conversation isn't about making work softer. It's about sustainable, high performance and what that actually looks like when an entire nation is watching, when pressure really is a privilege, but only if people are supported.

So let's get into it. Good day there. I'm Justin Angsuwat, Chief People and Customer Engagement Officer at Culture Amp. And I'm here with Toni Grimshaw, Chief People, Safety, and Wellbeing Officer at New Zealand Rugby, the organization behind the All Blacks, the Black Ferns, and one of the most iconic brands in the world of sports.

And so before we dive in, I want to do something a little bit different. We've got these conversation cards here that we created with the amazing psychotherapist, Esther Perel, and they're designed to surface things that don't usually come up in your usual two truths and a lie types of questions, to get at the human stuff behind work. So Toni, you up for pulling a couple out and seeing what happens?

Toni:

Kia ora, Justin. Great to see you. Absolutely. Let's do it. We use these cards on our team all the time to open up meetings and build connections. So I'm a big fan.

Justin:

I love that. And kia ora, to you too. So the three have pulled out is... So take your pick. "The message I wish I could unsend, a piece of advice I still think about, and the skill I wish I got to use more." Any of those speak to you?

Toni:

Oh, good questions. Yeah, look, there is a piece of advice that I still think about that I got really early in my career and I've been thinking about it recently, so it springs to the top of mind.

And it was when I was very early in my career, and I'd been a bit of a workaholic. I'm a bit of a work nerd. I love what I do. And I definitely have a tendency to just work all the time and think about work all the time. So go home, work in the evenings, work in the weekends, just can't stop.

And a boss sat me down early in my career and said, "You need to manage this, Toni. This isn't sustainable." And the piece of advice he gave is that what is given will be taken. So the message was that I set the standard for how I will work. And if I set the expectation that I will consistently work in that way, that will just become the expectation.

And I think about that advice a lot because as a leader, it's really important to role model work-life balance. And as a parent, I need to remember to bring a bit more balance in my life. So that's one I come back to often, actually.

Justin:

Such a great example. I mean, a lot of us in this field hear that advice a lot, but I've never heard it described in that way before, and so that's incredible. And I know as a leader in the organization, that sets the tone as well.

And it's going to be so exciting. I'm going into the depths of an organization, kind of peeking behind the curtains at one of the most famous sporting institutions in the world, where we're trying to balance high performance and understanding how that ties into this dedication to work. And so I'm really excited to spend this conversation learning more.

But before we go into that, let's just talk about right at the start. When you stepped into New Zealand rugby, what was your first day at New Zealand rugby like? You walked in, you kind of looked around. What's going on inside your head? And what's your vision for the place?

Toni:

My partner and I joke about this because the biggest thing that was on my mind, and I'm sure other people can relate to this, was, "Oh my God, nation, do I wear a suit? Do I wear high heels? Do I wear sneakers?" That was probably the biggest thing going around my mind. I settled on suit trousers and sneakers, by the way.

But actually, when I came in, I was just immediately quite in awe, actually. I hadn't come from sporting organizations. So suddenly to be in this amazing organization like New Zealand Rugby, I've got ex All Blacks in my team. I was just pretty... a bit of imposter syndrome, to be honest. Couldn't quite believe I was here, but was really excited.

But I think the vision that I brought in, and what I was really excited about, was the opportunity to learn about this high-performance culture, learn about what our teams in black do, and really think about how we pull that into the organization and leverage that internally to drive performance and culture.

So that was both the opportunity and the vision I had, the opportunity that we have at New Zealand Rugby that I think is really unique. I think I have probably one of the best CPO roles out there.

Justin:

Agreed. Agreed. And what a fun story to start with in terms of your entry. And you're saying the things I think that a lot of people are thinking about, "What do I wear on day one?" Because it's such a big symbol of what the culture's all about. So what's the correct answer to that question?

Toni:

We have a policy which is dress for your day. So if you have important meetings or you're with stakeholders or partners, you might dress a bit more formally, but day to day we wear what we call Adie-cas. So you'll see lots of Adidas. We're really proud to be partnered with Adidas. And I think we all think we're really lucky to work in an organization where we can wear sneakers and T-shirts and hoodies and be really comfortable while we carry out our work.

Justin:

And it sounds so small. It's just like, "What do I wear? How is this at all relevant to a culture?" But I do think that symbols and rituals build that culture, and it sends an important signal. It's one of thousands of signals that no doubt that you have to build your culture.

And one of them I've heard about was when new employees join New Zealand Rugby, there's this jersey presentation ceremony, and it's borrowed directly from how the All Blacks or the Black Ferns receive their jerseys as they join the sporting team. Can you take me into one of those moments? What actually happens in that room?

Toni:

Yeah, absolutely. So we're really big on building connection to our game, to the purpose, to the reason that we're here, which is to unify and inspire through rugby. And a big part of that is carrying through a lot of the rituals and practices that exist in our high-performance teams and have existed in those teams for a very, very long time.

And so one of the rituals that we have in place is the jersey presentation. So every few months we bring together all our new starters to an induction day, pretty stock standard. We talk about the organization, they meet the exec, what it's like to work here, all of that. But at the end of the day, and this is always a surprise, we don't put it on the agenda, we do a jersey presentation.

So we dim the lights in the room, and we have some of our staff, some of our ex-professional players. So our previous CE was an ex All Black. We've got Eroni Clarke here, ex All Black, Kendra, ex Black Fern, legendary players that come along, and they share with us the story about when they joined the team and the moment that they really felt part of the team and what it meant to wear the black jersey and to be the guardian of that jersey.

And so they come in and they share the story because I think it just makes the experience and the connection to our team so tangible. So we tell the story, and then we bring everybody up individually, and we present them with their black jersey, and we tell them, "You're here, you're part of our story now, you're part of the legacy of the black jersey. It's our responsibility to leave the jersey in a better place." And so by presenting you with this jersey, we really want you to think about that responsibility.

And it's such an incredible ritual. I know it sounds so simple, but you just see the pride. And the next day you see everyone turn out wearing their jerseys, and they're standing a bit taller, and it's just such a cool and special moment.

What I would say, though, I mean, of course we work with All Blacks and Black Ferns, how lucky are we? We work in rugby. But this has been true of any organization that I've worked in. If you can find ways to really connect people with the purpose of the organization, what you're there to do, people just connect in so much more strongly. They bring more empathy to their work. They've got more context in the way that they carry out work. So this is a really special example with New Zealand Rugby, but this is true of any organization, I think.

Justin:

It is. But peeking behind the curtains a little bit, as we talked about, I do think it's a really special concept. And I want to double click. I don't know if we can say that anymore because we're having conversation, we're not really clicking, but we'd love to learn more about that.

And so you touched on what I understand is a Māori concept of kaitiaki that New Zealand Rugby cares a lot about. And you talked about this concept of you're the guardian of the jersey, not the owner. And so you're here for a short time, and what impact do you want to leave?

I'm really curious to learn more about that. How does that mindset show up day to day in work? Because it could be easy from the outside to look at an organization like New Zealand rugby and go, "Well, no, you've joined this clan and you live, die, and you're here forever." So how do you balance that, and what does it look like to leave that legacy and be a guardian of the jersey? How does that show up?

Toni:

Yeah, great question. We're so lucky at New Zealand Rugby. And I think the thing that sets our teams in black apart is our ability to draw on the rich culture that comes from our Māori and Pasifika players and volunteers and coaches right across the system.

And in te ao Māori, they have these beautiful values. And one of them is kaitiaki, guardianship, which is what you're referring to. And the idea is that exactly as you said, you don't own the jersey.

So one of the things you might notice when you see the All Blacks play, for example, is we don't have the players' names on the back of the jersey. Other teams do. So we talk about the fact that we've been here for well over 100 years, and we will be here long into the future. And so everybody that comes into the organization, whether you're in a team, a professional team, or in the HR team, has a role to play to leave the jersey in a better place.

And this is a beautiful Māori value of kaitiaki, which outside of the sporting context refers to leaving land ownership, leaving New Zealand, leaving your part of the world in a better place.

And so we talk about this a lot. And for us, it helps to manage ego and entitlement, honestly. It's really about saying no one's bigger than the jersey. The jersey will be here long after you're gone. We have a responsibility to honor the legacy of the jersey and leave it in a better place.

And I think that just means our players and our staff bring a really different mindset to the way that we work and the way that we make decisions, which is about ensuring rugby is successful and that we inspire and unify for the next 100 years, not only today.

Justin:

Yeah. And it's a powerful concept. And I know a lot of organizations say that they really want to believe it, but I want to dive into some of the examples of how that shows up in the workplace.

And I know there's one that I'd heard of that really stuck with me because I think it's really easy to show your values, and that's a very strong value for you, when it's a very easy decision. Values really show up best when it's a difficult decision, when you're making a counterintuitive decision because you're supporting values. And in a lot of ways in organizations, one of the strongest places to do that is putting your money where your mouth is.

And I'd heard that New Zealand rugby turns down sponsorships or commercial opportunities when a partner wants to go in and build a campaign about one of the individual star players there. And that gets to this concept of the star player doesn't have their name on the back of the jersey. It is a team jersey. And so New Zealand Rugby will walk away even when there's actually quite a bit of revenue attached.

So can you walk me through some of those situations? What's at stake? How do you hold that line on team before individuals? So how does that show up within the organization?

Toni:

Yeah, great question. Look, to me, this is a value that we're pretty uncompromising on. And while I can't give any very specific examples, because we're talking about commercial negotiations and things like that, what I will say is that if you ever see billboards or advertisements or content around our players, it'll never feature heavily one player. It'll always be showing multiple players. We like to make sure we show the All Blacks and the Black Ferns. So we're really mindful that no one person is ever bigger than the team.

And you're quite right. I think that values matter the most when they stand for something and when you're willing to make some really difficult decisions to honor those values. And I've seen our organization, in a way that no other organization I've worked for, if I'm honest, has stood by this value right up to the highest level. Even our board chair, when people make a suggestion, "Hey, we'd love to just work with this individual player," the answer is always no. No one player is bigger than the jersey or bigger than the team.

Rugby's a team sport, we're an organization, we're a team, we're here to unify and inspire through rugby. Yeah, I think it's a nice way to set the tone for the way that we want to work inside New Zealand Rugby and frankly, I think what sets us apart in some ways from other teams.

Justin:

And other examples from inside the organization, outside of the sporting team where you see that value show up that might be different from other places you've worked or the usual workplace that...

Toni:

Yes. I probably can't think of one specific one because it's so much part of our DNA. And I think as an organization, our people are quite humble by nature. And so it would be rare to see one person coming out and saying, "Hey, I'm amazing and I did this amazing piece of work." You'll always hear, "We did this as a team, and these are the people that helped me, and here's how we contributed to this."

So we're always thinking about how all the parts of the team come together to deliver what we need to. Yeah, it's hard to pick one example because it's just so much part of our DNA.

Justin:

It's impressive because when you do it all the time, it's just who you are. It's not a thing that you do. And you touched on this concept of team first, and people look at sporting teams like the Black Ferns or the All Blacks. And one thing that surprised me is that they're selected season by season, and every time they come together, it's essentially a new combination of the team.

And they usually get, from what I understand, up to two weeks last year, to get to know each other before they go out and represent their country. And so I imagine people might assume what goes into those first couple of weeks. So if you had two weeks only to get to know each other as a team and then go step on the field and operate as a single unit representing your country, where it's team over individual, can you give us again a peek behind that curtain to know, with only two weeks, what do you do to get that team ready to operate as a team?

Because it busts this myth that you have to be together for a really long time to know, trust each other, and operate as a team. What goes on?

Toni:

Yeah, absolutely. That's exactly right. One of the things I was really fascinated by when I joined New Zealand Rugby, and anyone who's worked in sports or played sports will know this, that the team changes all the time season by season. So you're constantly resetting.

And one of the things I've really loved observing about our teams is that in that short time, so they might have two weeks before they go out and play a test match, which in a corporate setting is just crazy. How do you get a team ready for that? But for our players, they go right back to connection. So connection with each other, they will spend time off the field in the clubrooms talking about their rugby whakapapa.

So whakapapa is your background, your lineage, where you've come from. So they spend time talking about that. Who did they play for? How did they get into rugby? How have they come through? What does it mean to them? They share their culture. We are so lucky. We're so blessed with these different cultures and the values of Pasifika and Māori coming into our team environments.

So there's a lot of time really deliberately invested upfront in building that really strong sense of connection with each other in order to become a high-performing team. We have this framework that we use: connection, clarity, and courage.

So once you're really connected, once you've built that strong sense of connection, you can get really clear about the mission. So as a team, how do we want to show up in two weeks when we play whoever we play? Last year it was France. And how do we want to play? How do we want to show up not only on the field, but off the field as well? What are the behaviors we want to exhibit? What are the values that we want to identify for ourselves as a team?

And then I think the courage piece is the ability to put all of that together and go out and give it everything to win and to function as a team.

And it's one of the things I've absolutely loved about learning more about our high-performance environments is the deliberate investment in that connection upfront.

We as an executive team for New Zealand Rugby are going through quite a lot of change at the moment. We've just welcomed two executive leaders in. We've got another executive leader moving on in a few months. And those two new executive leaders are two weeks into the role, and we've just taken two days together as a team to connect.

And it starts off a bit awkward. You hardly know these people. It's a bit like going to a wedding. At the beginning of a wedding, you don't really know anyone, you don't know who to speak to. It starts off a bit like that. But we go deep. Why are we here? What do we know about each other? What do we think we know about each other? What do we want to achieve? We get really, really connected. That was the first day.

And then the second day we moved into what do we want for the organization? How do we want to show up? How do we want to behave? And what we found just last week is that deliberate time connecting on the first day meant that the second day we were firing on all cylinders. We made so much progress as a team. And I walked away thinking, "How did we ever do this before? How do teams get to work without investing that time and connection?" Because it's easy to put off because you're so busy, but it's so worthy of the investment. And I think our high-performance teams show that, demonstrate that every season.

Justin:

So great. Connection, clarity, courage. And when competition is strong and the scoreboard doesn't lie and you only have two weeks, it's very easy to assume that you just jump straight in and, "Let's go run some drills. Let's just run drills. Let's hit the field. Let's go do our thing."

But if you think the most effective way of doing this is actually starting with connection, it reduces the fluffiness around the concept of, "Oh, this is a fluffy thing. Let's get this over with and let's get straight into the drills." But it's actually core to the team's performance internally and as well as the teams on the field.

And I can imagine with so much pressure, your product, many organizations have products, and your product is essentially the teams, and your own organization's always in the public eye, including, you mentioned before, you're going through this massive transformation, vacant CE role before, brand new All Blacks head coach, new board, and the media probably assumes it's absolute chaos. That's what we hear from the outside.

Tell me what it feels like internally when you're dealing with that amount of pressure.

Toni:

For me, honestly, it's quite exciting. I'm not a status quo leader. I'm attracted to transformation and evolution, and I think that's really exciting.

But actually, if I put it in our context and I take us back to that value of guardianship, we're the kaitiaki of New Zealand Rugby and the jersey at this point in time. And while we absolutely honor our legacy and our history, we know, like any other organization actually, that the world is changing around us. And as an organization, we cannot stand still. Even with a brand like the All Blacks and the legacy that we have, you cannot stand still. The world is changing.

And so what we're moving towards is this new chapter for the organization and the game. And while it feels like a lot is changing at the moment, and it is, what I feel is an organization that's getting itself really well set up. It's connection and clarity in action. We're getting really clear about what's our strategy, what's our purpose, who are the people that we need around the table, what is the future that we are seeking, and how do we get ourselves there.

And I think at the moment, we're in this really exciting period where we're putting all of those pieces together.

Now, I don't shy away from the fact that change is unsettling. And even though we talk a lot about this and the responsibility we have as guardians of the game right now, change is unsettling for our people. It feels like things are changing quickly, but the world is just changing at a faster pace than ever before.

And so we're really focused, and we use the frame connection, clarity, courage to bring people right back to, "Why are we here? What's our role as guardians? Let's get really clear. What does the future look like? How do we make sure rugby is still New Zealand's number one sport in the future?" And the courage is, "Let's go after it. It won't be easy all the time, but let's go after it."

And so that's how it feels at the moment. It's exciting, but it's a lot too.

Justin:

A lot to take away from there. And it feels very centering to talk about connection, clarity, courage. It's the thing you come back to, and again, very centering in a world of change.

And I love that in this world of change, you see it as excitement, and it sounds like that's a lot of what goes on inside New Zealand Rugby. Pressure while the entire nation is watching you go do your work is a unique kind of pressure. And it sounds like people there really invite it.

I remember the All Blacks famously said, "Pressure is a privilege." And so can you tell me more about how that comes to life inside New Zealand Rugby? What can we learn about that off the field? It feels like this embracing of change. Tell me more about that.

Toni:

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Pressure is a privilege is something we hear quite a lot. And it was referenced in the Legacy book that came out. So I think a lot of people are very interested in this concept.

When I think about pressure is a privilege in my context as the Chief People and Safety Officer, I think we have to acknowledge that New Zealand rugby, it's not an easy organization to work in. It's really complex. We are doing everything from growing participation at grassroots level, right through to driving our high-performance teams to be the number one ranked teams in the world. We have a commercial strategy that sits around that. We've got really complex player safety and welfare needs. There's so much that's happening.

And as an organization, we're global, so we work and we often have to meet in the evenings or early in the morning. Our product, rugby, it's played in the weekend. So we ask a lot of our people. We know that. And we're really upfront with that with people when they come into the organization. We want them to know that we're a high-performance organization. We work really hard. Our people give a lot, and that won't be for everybody. So we're quite honest about that.

We're a not-for-profit, and our purpose is to bring revenue in to invest back into the game at the grassroots level. So we're not the highest-paying organization either. A lot of our people could go elsewhere and earn a lot more, but our people choose to be here because of all of this. We build that sense of connection to our purpose, to the reason that we're here, and our people want to be part of that. They feel deeply, deeply connected.

So when I think about the pressure being a privilege, I kind of put it in that context, and I certainly feel this. It's a lot. It's hard. I work long hours, but God, I wouldn't want to be anywhere else.

Yeah, so we talk about that a lot. We're really aware, though, of the trade-off that comes with that. We really have to think about the wellbeing of our people. If we put it in a player context, we think about player load and player wellbeing. Gosh, these players are traveling all around the world. It's a problem with being at the bottom of the planet. They're traveling all around the world. They're playing more and more. The game is getting more physical.

So we just have to be aware of the privilege that we have and the opportunity that we have, but also the trade-offs that come with that, that we have to keep our eye on and manage on the way through.

Justin:

Yeah. People are not there just for the money, which is very clear. And I think one thing that really works well at New Zealand Rugby is that you're very clear about who you are, unashamedly so. And so if you're up for this journey, if this is what excites you, as you said, come join us. And if it's not, then it might not be for you. But it strikes me, that level of clarity that you have.

And people might look at New Zealand Rugby and look at your two products, or the two teams that you largely support, and think that... they think a lot about the good times, like, "What an incredible team, what an incredible legacy," but there's also tough times. I imagine there'll be these tough losses of test matches in a World Cup.

So can you walk me through maybe what the 48 hours after a big All Blacks defeat actually looks like from a people and wellbeing perspective? What are you paying attention to that most people wouldn't see?

Toni:

Yeah, I mean, good question. No team will win all the time. Professional sports team or HR, any team, we just don't win all the time. That's just life.

And so yeah, I have definitely noticed when we do experience those losses on the field, you come into the office on the Monday morning and it's quiet. People are really reflective about, "Why is that and what do we need to do to turn this around?" And people are curious about that.

But mostly there's a level of care that I just haven't seen really in any other organization. Every organization has bad days or bad years or whatever challenges. But for us, people feel it. And you can see it and you can feel it in the air in the office.

We're really lucky because we have leaders who are involved in the game who will try and debrief us back to the organization even at a high level just to let us know how people are feeling and what they're doing and keep that level of connection up. But it's never an easy 48 hours after a loss.

Justin:

When you care that much about the team, when you care that much about your product and the outcome, when you're that mission driven, you're not disconnected from the outcomes, like, "Well, that was someone else's problem. Well, that was someone else's product. Okay, whatever." You feel that connection.

It was really interesting to hear how the team responds to that because the All Blacks and the Black Ferns cultures are probably one of the most studied team cultures in the world, I think. A lot of scrutiny, a lot of things written up.

And so what's something about how the culture actually works at New Zealand Rugby that maybe the books, articles, stories just get wrong, or they miss the point of? What's it actually like?

Toni:

Good question. Judging by the emails that we get into our information box on a Monday morning after a game, I think everybody probably thinks that we all work directly with our teams in black and have a say in how they're coached or managed on the field. So we know, working for New Zealand Rugby, that we're a product that New Zealand feels really deeply connected and committed to. So we see a lot of that emotion, and we get a lot of feedback about how our teams are doing.

So that's one thing. We're not all in there with the coaches in the clubrooms after a game debriefing with players. I say that a bit jokingly, but honestly, by the emails, I think people think we are.

But no, I think what is really special about rugby and New Zealand Rugby is what we can do through the game of rugby and the really positive change that we can drive through the game. So while our absolute priority is growing participation and making sure the game's really successful in New Zealand, making sure our teams in black are winning, we also know we have this responsibility to do a lot of social good in New Zealand.

So we do a lot of work in the communities raising awareness around mental health and wellbeing, for example, and working particularly with young men, where we know there's really high rates of depression and anxiety, to reduce the stigma of that and use rugby as a vehicle to do that. We have All Blacks that are ambassadors back into the community driving this messaging.

We do a lot of work around women and girls participation in sport. We do a lot of work around player safety and welfare. How do we make sure players are safe and supported and the game is really sustainable for anyone that comes into the system?

And I think sometimes we focus so much on the on-field results that we forget that there's just so much more substance to New Zealand Rugby and what we do and what we care about.

Justin:

Yeah, it's really well put. It's really important, and it's a vehicle to even more goodness. It's been a great conversation, and I feel like we could talk for a very long time, but I'll wrap with one more question for you, which is a lot of people, again, are very fascinated with the product, with the teams, with what goes on. I loved taking a sneak peek behind what goes on in New Zealand Rugby.

For people that are curious about the organization, if you could share one thing to someone who might be interested in joining New Zealand Rugby or what goes on at New Zealand Rugby, what would you share with them?

Toni:

It is, without a doubt, the best place I have ever worked. Our people are incredible, the most passionate group of people you will ever come across. They care so deeply about the game and the outcomes. It's just such a privilege to be here. It's such a special place. Like I said, I think I have got the best CPO role in the world.

Justin:

Could see it in your face throughout this conversation. I could feel it from the energy. Toni, loved the conversation. It was such a pleasure. Thank you for being so transparent about what actually happens behind the curtains in one of the highest-performing set of teams and most studied team cultures in the world.

To our listeners, thanks for tuning in. Hope this gives you some fuel for your own high-performance journey as you're thinking about your own organization.

Until next time, I'm Justin Angsuwat. Keep it real and keep it human.